Repeatedly Ignoring Opportunities That Could Have Saved and Freed Her Children From a Miserable Life: The Cold-Blooded Truth About Young Mother Elizabeth Ciders Is Finally Exposed.

Repeatedly Ignoring Opportunities That Could Have Saved and Freed Her Children From a Miserable Life: The Cold-Blooded Truth About Young Mother Elizabeth Ciders Is Finally Exposed.

Hi everyone, it’s Annne Emerson and this is Crimly Obsessed. If you’ve been watching the Lindsay Clancy trial, you need to hear this. Elizabeth Ciders is now going to be evaluated. She’s the Ohio mom whose 16 children were found in deplorable conditions. Listen to how her own attorney describes meeting her after she was arrested on 16 child endangerment charges.

> I really didn’t know what I was walking into. Um, when I walked in there, I I met a woman who was timid and who was exhausted. It looked like she had been crying quite a bit. She She looked distraught. >> Get this. According to the latest order from the judge, Elizabeth Ciders has to be found competent enough to stand trial in order for her to enter a not-uilty by reason of insanity plea.

 This is a woman now accused along with her husband and her in-laws in one of the most closely watched child welfare cases in [music] Ohio. Really, we were caught off guard and surprised to find that 16 [music] kids were in this home after serving a warrant on a another incident. >> But there’s a question that has to be answered before this case can move forward.

 Is Elizabeth Cers competent to stand trial? And oh my gosh, I thought I knew what a competency exam was. I had no idea because this isn’t just someone sitting across from Elizabeth asking her a bunch of questions. I had to call in forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Doppson. She has done a ton of competency exams. So, listen to this. You’re actually in a mock trial.

 So, we set up a whole trial room. I acted as a DA or a prosecutor or a judge. The the patients who were doing well would act in certain roles and we try and see if you can get through putting your plea forward and you understand. >> [music] >> Wait, a mock trial. So, somebody can be found incompetent and then go through competency restoration to see if they can actually stand trial.

 So, what are they actually looking for in Elizabeth Ciders? And what happens if she can’t pass the test? And Dr. Leslie Dobson takes us into a part of the criminal justice system that most of us never see. Be sure to like, subscribe, and turn on your notifications. We’re going to be updating this case and all of the other cases that you’re obsessed with.

This one has a lot going on. Now, let’s get into it. Dr. Leslie Dobson, thank you so much for joining us. Forensic psychologist is exactly what the doctor ordered right now. Dr. Leslie, you know, uh, we have been following the Ciders case for a couple of months now, looking at looking at what we know, but right now we know Elizabeth Ciders is going to be getting a competency exam.

 They’ve gone ahead and approved it. And Dr. Leslie, just tell me a little bit because you have done your fair share of uh, compos competency exams, haven’t you? >> Yes. um from within the state hospital system and then outside and then when I was working in Washington DC I would go down into the jails and do evaluations. So it can be for a variety of reasons, >> right? And so Dr.

 Leslie, you have worked in prison in the prison system and how often are we asking for things like a competency exam? You know, I’d say at least, you know, a quarter of the arrests that came into, for example, LA County Jail ended up their lawyers ended up requesting a competency evaluation. And oftentimes it was because they couldn’t talk to their client.

 The the lawyer was like, “I don’t know if they even understand me. I don’t know if they’re on drugs or they’re mentally ill. Uh, I don’t know what’s going on.” And sometimes it was a delay tactic or some type of tactic, but oftentimes they wanted second eyes on the the client. so that the client didn’t put in a plea that they had no idea or that they didn’t understand.

>> Okay. So, in Elizabeth Ciders, you know, this young woman who has basically been pregnant since, you know, she was, I think, 13 years old, but at 15, she gets married off uh to a man named Gary Cers Jr. who were learning about this family. Um, and of course when they found her children, they were in terrible um, condition according to the investigators, to the prosecutors that are going to be involved in this case.

When you look at that mug shot, what did you think? I I think my initial reaction was to judge her. Uh, and because she looks like a drug addict. That was my genuine initial reaction. And as I’ve learned more, I do think drugs were likely involved. But I question the level of captivity.

 I question it as not so much physical captivity but coercive control and psychological captivity because of being in this relationship or if you can call it a relationship this abusive family for so long. Uh but I do also you know I want to see the victim for the victim but I question at some point you know when is she also going to be held responsible and so that’s why this competency evaluation is so important.

 The other three have already gone to competency training, I guess you could say, or they’re having their evaluations. Finally, Elizabeth’s lawyer puts hers through. Uh, and then we will be able to see if she’s competent, we get to start trial, and if she’s not, they’re going to make her competent and then we she’s going to put forward the insanity plea.

 Well, and Leslie, what about, you know, we’re starting to see questions about, and maybe it’s because of it’s in the zeitgeist with Lindsay Clancy, but we’re seeing, you know, this is a woman who’s been pregnant her entire, you know, teens through 20s to 30s, like, you know, for for a long long period of her life. Um, postpartum uh depression could be involved with this.

 postpartum in general, we could be looking at those issues all over again, >> right? And I don’t know, I’m sure there are maybe there’s a few people in this world who study a lifetime of pregnancy, but hormonally and psychologically, what is this woman’s makeup when all she’s done is she’s been pregnant and then she’s given birth and then gotten pregnant again? It’s it’s unimaginable.

I can’t even imagine. I would I would question if there are people who actually study this. >> Well, and and just to be clear for everyone, the difference between being incompetent and being insane. Um, those two just just to help our viewers understand where we’re going with this with Elizabeth, you have to be found competent in order to be found insane.

Correct. Competency is the earliest thing your lawyer is saying, “Hey, whoa, whoa. I need to make sure that my client knows what a plea bargain is. Like, does my client know what a jury is? Does my client know what a judge does? Does my client know what a lawyer does? Competency is that very initial piece. If you’re found competent, then you get to put forward a plea and rationally, logically have a conversation with your lawyer about the truth and what what you want to put forward with.

 And it does sound like insanity is what they’re all going to put forward. So, in a sense, they’re all saying, “Yeah, we did that. We were there, but we’re all insane.” >> If you were going into um you know, to see Elizabeth and to try and talk to her right now, what would that look like? >> She’s sitting in a jail cell.

 It doesn’t sound like she’s dangerous, so she’s probably not cuffed and she’s probably in a small pod amongst other women able to communicate. Uh, and so you would go in and depending on the setting, you would either have a a wall between you or a window or you just go straight in and she would be cuffed to the table.

And you have to slowly understand their mindset. So, can they rationally understand what is going on? Like really, do you know what’s happening right now? Let’s just get down to the nitty-gritty. And then, can you factually understand? Do you know what a judge is? Do you know what the jury does? Can you communicate in a meaningful way with your lawyer? So, you’d sit down and ask those questions and my guess is that she’s not competent because the lawyer pushed so hard and waited to put this in. So, then what

would happen is she’d likely be moved to a state hospital facility where they have these tracks for competency and you go all the way through these courses where you’re actually in a mock trial. So, we set up a whole trial room. I acted as a DA or a prosecutor or a judge. The the patients who were doing well would act in certain roles and we try and see if you can get through putting your plea forward and you understand.

>> Okay. I had no idea. >> I had no idea you did all that. >> It’s I mean the the patients had fun with it. Um a lot of the incompetent patients when they were struggling, you know, we could really identify where they were struggling and how. Sometimes it really came down to performance anxiety.

 the other times they were seriously mentally ill. But they have specific programs where that’s all you talk about. That’s all you do. That’s all you work on until you’re competent to go back to jail and go to trial. Okay. So, how long does all of this take? >> A long time. Sometimes, you know, in California, if you sometimes you can tap out at three years.

>> I thought you were going to say like three months. No, sometimes uh you may never be held accountable and you can be set free because you will never gain competency. It is a bit of a get out of jail free card when you are so mentally ill and unable to participate in your own criminal defense. >> I mean, you’re not getting your kids back.

 It’s not like you’re going back to your life, right? >> Some do, but some are so intellectually unable to live their life that they can’t have their children back. But I have seen people get out and stay out and that’s the sad part of of our system. Uh but people try to fake it all the time and that’s what we have to do is we have to weed them out with significant testing.

 I mean when you’re in a state facility 24/7 you’re being watched. You know everyone we’re rounding on you and then we’re talking about you and there’s layers of all of this and then because it is legal there everybody wants to be careful, right? So, we’re documenting everything and we do not allow the liars and the malingers to stay in the state hospitals.

 So, everything is about finding them and pushing them out. If you’re competent, then they’re like, “Okay, we’re going to trial. Like, we’re going to we’re going back into court. We’ve done what we need to do and we found that you are competent to stand trial.” >> Correct. >> Okay.

 And that’s when they would be able to kind of move forward with the legal system as it were. That’s when I would assume they’ll put forward a not guilty by reason of insanity plea. And I don’t entirely understand that because it would be for all 16 counts. That so that’s her entire life. So she was they’re saying she was insane and didn’t know that her actions had consequences for her entire life.

>> You would almost expect them to be saying, “Well, then she was held hostage, right? Like she was literally there against her will her entire life, >> right? But then why wouldn’t they go for not guilty? >> How often do these defendants usually restore their competency? Is it is it pretty common for defendants to get up to speed and be like, “Okay, I’m competent now.

” >> I would say almost always um for for intellectual disabilities, uh those are different lanes and that might be a different type of housing that the individual goes to if they can’t become competent. And another really interesting thing because I covered the the one of the trials of of Lorie Valow Debel, the the mom who um took the lives of her two children uh who she had thought were zombies.

 Um and it took two years for them to get her competent, but she got competent. >> Even if you thought her kids were zombies, they were able to say, “You’re standing trial in 2023.” Right? Because it’s not about if you’re mentally sane or not. It’s about the factual and rational understanding of the court and the the process.

 So, you know, if she does she think the judge is a a zombie? Okay, cool. Lori, the judge is a zombie. But do you know what he does? Okay, he determines your sentencing. Okay, >> he listens to the jury. Okay, then you’re competent. So, you don’t have to be uh rational or you can still have severe mental illness or uh personality disorders, but you can but you can you know what a judge and a jury is.

 So, you’re going to trial, >> right? You can you have to be rational, but you can still be mentally ill and rational. It just doesn’t matter if it’s related to something other than trial and putting your plea forward. >> How long do you spend with them? Like, how many like months? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, wow. >> Uh, when I was physically in the state hospital, my office was a converted jail cell or a patient bedroom.

 And so, you know, got up, we’d have breakfast and we’d start to do competency work and group work, a lot of group work. Um, but we’re a team in there trying to get people to get competent when it comes to that particular program. If you were the one going in to see Elizabeth and you’ve been you’ve been getting her ready for trial and and now found her competent in order to do this insanity plea.

 Um what’s your role as a forensic psychologist? Like how do you approach this? >> So you can work for the state or the government or you can work independently. But you go in and basically the the competency team would be giving you all of the documentation that they’ve been putting together making this person competent.

 And then you’re going to get everything humanly possible. I want records from when you’re 2 years old. I want to know what your first boyfriend said to you, the first time you had sex with her. We kind of clearly know uh with citers, but I want to know everything. I want to interview anyone who might give me any insight into the frame of mind, your mindset at the time of the crime.

 And that’s why the the CERS case is so interesting to me because what is the time of the crime? What’s the crime? We have years and years of child endangerment. So, it’s going to be a very complex assessment. >> Well, and don’t you feel like that that’s sort of what we’re looking at, too? And we’re seeing it over and over again, like Dr.

 or Leslie, like with the Lindsy Clancy trial, sorry, it’s top of mind with what’s been going on, but you know, you you saw it with that as well as far as mentally ill versus um crimly responsible like, you know, can you be mentally ill and crimally responsible or can or is is that what this is versus criminally responsible? Am I right? Like Elizabeth Ciders, is she she can be mentally ill, but she can still be criminally responsible for what happened.

Yes. And in my opinion, I think she will be criminally responsible because there are so many moments where she was out and about, where there were so many years that went by where she likely could have gotten help, where she was a victim and at the same time she was a perpetrator preventing help for the children with them having cell phones and social medias.

 And you know, we have barely any information on this case, but what I’m seeing already shows me that she is a victim who also had selfish decisions that superseded the care of her children. >> And [snorts] when you say selfdecisions, how how do you term that? Like how do you define that? >> Well, I think there were opportunities where she could have helped them or taken them to places that were cleaner and safer.

 uh they would go to the grocery store. She could have asked for help there. And I know even if she was under coercive control or Stockholm syndrome, there were still periods where she had the an adult mind. And we’ll find that out in the compet competency evaluation. You know, how much of a mind does she have? But there’s also a lot of chatter about substance use and drug use and the markings on her body were due to her own use of substances.

 we need to find out if she was initiating that or if if somebody else was or if it was even happening. So, there’s so much more information we need to find out about this case. One other thing I want to ask about Elizabeth, the her ability to understand is also something that’s very concerning.

 We’re talking about a woman who at 13 is pregnant according to prosecutors. She’s married at married off at 15 by parents who sign off on the marriage license. off she goes. And um she’s not an adult to be making these decisions either. I mean, that has got to play a role that as a child she was brought into this situation um impregnated somehow and then >> like led into this like unbelievable like just staying pregnant the whole time. The whole time.

>> The whole time. How can we say to a woman like that, this is your fault? >> Exactly. And I think it’s not a question of humanity at this point because you and I would be there to help, right? It’s a question of law. And if you look at it legally, if you look at it legally, she can be identified as a perpetrator.

>> Okay? And so that’s really what we’re dealing with is a victim can also be a perpetrator. Yes. And I think that’s the struggle when it comes to social media and why these things get so crazy on social media is because you have to slow down and use discernment and wait for information. And that might take years.

But people would rather run with theories that Patrick Clancy killed his children. I mean it’s we have as the person actually doing the job I can’t run with theories like that I need evidence information I need to watch behavioral patterns over time I need to gain so much information and I need to see patterns of growth as well and uh you know recidivism rates I have to do psychological assessments you have to stabilize on medications with psychiatry and imagine the physical health workup of all four of those adults they were

probably in such bad health. I mean, they had to let the the grandfather out because he’s probably going to croak any day. >> I spoke to a clerk who um had some interaction with her. She kept her head down. She had this, you know, she had Gary Cers Jr. sort of leading her around by her elbow in the store.

 Um she was very quiet. They tried to give her hygiene products because it was so bad they literally had to lysol the store down when they left. According to this clerk, it was just there was so many issues. But like the hygiene products, they kept on saying, “Well, that didn’t seem like they use them.” When you hear that, I I want to understand like those are the kind of things that do you need to know as a forensic psychologist as you’re trying to understand her state of mind.

>> Yes. And I want to know her brother said that they were in communication briefly before this was discovered. I’d like to know what they were talking about. What’s her reading level? Is she able to converse at what level? Does she have emotional? Does she have an emotional IQ? Does she have an intellectual IQ? You know, there’s so much testing that needs to be done.

 And then the collateral information as well because she’s been alive all these years. What’s been going on? And what has everyone else around her noticed? >> That’s a really good question. And how many cases they’ve seen like this? The Lindsay Clancy case. How will that roll down into a case like Elizabeth Ciders? Do you see an impact from a from a trial like Clancy and postpartum psychosis? Like the worst of the worst, like I I hear voices and I do this horrible act with my children.

 Do you see that rolling into cases like this where we’re looking at a different mom who’s had different issues with her multiple children? I do. And I do because of the audience, because of your audience, because of my audience, because the judge in the Clansancy case had a conviction overturned the other day. So, a woman now gets to actually plead not guilty by reason of insanity because uh we pushed so hard.

 So if we keep pushing, we can keep building awareness and attention towards women’s mental health and women’s maternal mental health. And right now the world is watching and this is when we make change and we don’t shut up even if people are calling us dramatic. >> Yeah, I think you’re right because I mean if you look at it like it’s it’s it’s extraordinary timing as you know we heard about the CERS case.

 We get into the Clancy trial and we’re dealing with very different situations. We have socioeconomic situations that are on opposite ends of the scale here. Highly um educated family um with the Clancy’s very very low level of um care and poverty and economic >> and socioeconomic hell for the for the CERS family.

 Yet, we’re still dealing with a story of a of of moms that just aren’t getting the support they need and things aren’t going well. >> Yeah. We’re dealing with systems where the systems are failing people at many many levels from the highest level all the way down to neighbors and family. And it is really sad. But as we make noise and we hold people accountable and I believe Lindsay will not be found criminally responsible, we change things.

 We change the way people look at these cases, the way they approach them. We make change. Drop a comment below. I want to hear what you’re thinking about this case. You know, I had never heard of the whole competency restoration process as she explained it to us. Dr. Leslie is amazing and I’m so grateful that she could come on and talk to us about this today.

 Let me know what you’re thinking and do you see any comparisons right now in what’s going on with the Lindsy Clansancy case? Uh it’s very interesting law. Be sure to like, subscribe, and turn on your notifications. You know, we’re going to be updating the CERS case as we get more information as well as all of the cases that you’re obsessed with.